davelin315 August 10, 2011 Share August 10, 2011 I don't think that the bacteria will all get killed off in the hospital tank despite the medications. If that were the case, I'd assume that this would also kill off the fish themselves as their digestive tracts would be completely neutralized, rendering them unable to keep down any food and nutrition. I'd go ahead and medicate and leave the rock in there or whatever you use for filtration. In the meantime, I'd also toss something into the main system to build up extra bacteria colonies that you can use. I would avoid the polyfilter at all costs in the hospital as it'll do what it's designed to do, remove all traces of medication and other contaminants. I'd also suggest getting one of those little in tank ammonia testers - the ones that simply change color with the ammonia levels. Use of amquel or ammo-lock should be a decent substitute for full scale water changes all of the time, but I'd do whatever size water change will work with your medication schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 10, 2011 Author Share August 10, 2011 (edited) My thinking is that some of the pods and bacteria that are on the few rocks i placed in the hospital tank may not withstand the copper. The die off will make more ammonia. Everything I've read says copper will kill off pods, inverts and some bacteria. Too much copper can kill the fish too. It's a balancing act. The poly filter was only used to help reduce the ammonia and to take whatever traces of medication were left after the water changes. My priority was to reduce the stress for the fish;get rid of ammonia, increase oxygenation, remove the medication and stabalize the system. Since they are not in the environment that housed or caused the illness a couple of days off the medication in a sterile hospital tank should not be enough time to cause a manifestation of the disease. I wont be leaving the poly filter in the HOB when I start to medicate. That would defete the purpose of medicating as would carbon. Ammo-lock and maybe microbacter7 is what I'm leaning towards with increased water changes. Everyhting is stable again so what I did worked. I'll give it another day of just water changes with the polyfilter then remove the polyfilter and start medicating again, feed less, increase water changes and add some microbacter7 with the water changes. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think that the bacteria will all get killed off in the hospital tank despite the medications. If that were the case, I'd assume that this would also kill off the fish themselves as their digestive tracts would be completely neutralized, rendering them unable to keep down any food and nutrition. I'd go ahead and medicate and leave the rock in there or whatever you use for filtration. In the meantime, I'd also toss something into the main system to build up extra bacteria colonies that you can use. I would avoid the polyfilter at all costs in the hospital as it'll do what it's designed to do, remove all traces of medication and other contaminants. I'd also suggest getting one of those little in tank ammonia testers - the ones that simply change color with the ammonia levels. Use of amquel or ammo-lock should be a decent substitute for full scale water changes all of the time, but I'd do whatever size water change will work with your medication schedule. Edited August 10, 2011 by Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowieReefer84 August 10, 2011 Share August 10, 2011 (edited) doesn't polyfilter REMOVE copper? I thought if it turned a certain color, it was pulling copper out? Might be working against you in this case? Just thinking outloud. edit - read your post above... ignore me. Edited August 10, 2011 by BowieReefer84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 10, 2011 Author Share August 10, 2011 (edited) Yes, and in this case, at this stage, that's what I want it to do. It will be taken out once I start to medicate again. The other thought is that my test kit doesn't measure the copper accurately, so eliminating it altogether and starting over also decreases any chance of overdosing. Balancing act all around here. doesn't polyfilter REMOVE copper? I thought if it turned a certain color, it was pulling copper out? Might be working against you in this case? Just thinking outloud. edit - read your post above... ignore me. Edited August 10, 2011 by Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copps August 10, 2011 Share August 10, 2011 Why do I think that Copps said in his lecture about angels that he basically does 100% water changes daily when they're in hospital tanks learning to feed? I could be all mixed up, but that's stuck in my mind. Jan, you inspire me with your willingness to dig in and do everything you possibly can. I know that you love to learn, but by sharing all of this you're helping all of us to learn - thank you! Now maybe I should go and do a water change...... I always say when I talk about QT in my lectures that the most common problem BY FAR with QT is improper biologiocal filtration... and that seems to be what got Jan here... I do 100% water changes on my QT tanks, not daily, but usually weekly depending on the circumstances. I also highly recommend these, as ammonia is by far the biggest QT killer... http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AmmoniaAlert.html They will give you a real time reading on your ammonia levels and let you know when it's an issue... they minute it starts to turn off yellow... even before it gets to the first stage on the level indicator, you should plan a water change... also be sure to mix your newly made up saltwater for at least 36 hours (or 24 if you're in a pinch) and be sure it is the same temp and salinity... One other note... a lot of people initially get discouraged when they have issues with QT... do not give it up! Like anything else there is a learning curve, and as much as you read about something you will have initial hiccups... you could read and study and study about riding a bike for months and yet you'd still have issues when you first tried it out... and if we all gave up after initial failures NONE OF US would be in this hobby! The nice thing is that once you gain confidence in your QT and treatment methods and understand what goes on when you do have an issue pop up you handle the situation much better. My thinking is that some of the pods and bacteria that are on the few rocks i placed in the hospital tank may not withstand the copper. The die off will make more ammonia. Everything I've read says copper will kill off pods, inverts and some bacteria. Too much copper can kill the fish too. It's a balancing act. This is very true and you need to be aware of that... copper works amazingly well but has its drawbacks... I use Seachem Cupramine over any other copper products... Many of our displays harbor parasites, and so what is also very common is infecting our newly purchased fish in the QT with parasites introduced from our display... I keep my QTs completely separate and do not let one drop of water go between any of my QTs or display... it only takes a drop (actually less) to introduce a parasite, the the newly purchased weak and stressed fish easily become vulnerable to many of them... I prefer Aquaclear hang on the back filters with a couple of the sponges that come with them in them. These sponges act as all the media you need for a good colony of nitrifying bacteria to colonize (the kind that break down ammonia and nitrites). On top of being great for biological filtration, they are great for mechanical filtration... when you do your water change you ring out the sponges and remove all of the excess food and wastes before they have a chance to breakdown (into ammonia of course)... and unlike what many people think, these sponges do not affect any medications or copper based remedies... Hope that helps! Copps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 11, 2011 Author Share August 11, 2011 (edited) OMG,Yes! Your reply helps tremendously. I can't thank you enough. I'm on the right track and that is very encouraging to me. I started my hospital tank with water from the established tank but did not add a sponge in the HOB filter because I was going to use medication. If it were a regular QT I would have added the bio wheel I keep in my sump. I thought that the water from the main display had enough biology to start the QT and knew that once I started to medicate I'd kill off the majority of biology, along with any free floating parasites. What I did not anticipate was how much would die off and how fast the accumulated waste would break down. I didn't do a 100% water change at the start but did perform partial water changes every other day. I had too many fish in the tank and must not have gotten all the waste out. The reamining waste continued to break down creating the cycle which led to more losses. This makes total sense. After each partial water change I'd also test the copper levels to make sure I brought it back up to the right level for treatment. But I couldn't find the color I was getting on the chart. So I kept adding little drops of copper and testing in an effort to bring the level of copper up. I was not able to get the right reading and decided to change the water again. Then it all fell apart; fih appeared distressed and started to die and the ammonia levels were off the chart. I decided to change 100% of the water and start all over. What stumped me was that after 100% water change I still got an ammonia reading that was off the charts. Then I thought it must have been the new water. So I tested it for ammonia and I got a "0" reading for ammonia. I performed another 100% water change, added the poly filter to the HOB, dosed ammo-lock, and threw in a few pieces of LR. Within a few hours everything was stable again. The fish are eating again. I believe I'm on the right track now. The remaining fish are doing great. I'll purchase the seachem test kits. I have API and Red Sea. I will remove the poly filter, make another water change, add a sponge in the HOB filter and start medicating again. I'll test for nitrites and ammonia daily. I will heed your advice and as soon I see the slightest change in color, I'll perform a 100% water change. This will help me to gauge how often I should do the water changes. Then I'll make sure that I'm a couple of days ahead of the initial water change and perform water changes accordingly. I'll also clean the sponge with each water change. I just can't imagine doing 100% water change everyday. Copps, thank you so much for explaining this to me. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand it all. I do have one more question. Is the sponge really acting as a biological filter when we medicate with copper and antibiotics or is it just acting like a filter and collecting debris? Doesn't the medication kill off most of the biology? Is there enough left to really make a difference after I medicate? Jan I always say when I talk about QT in my lectures that the most common problem BY FAR with QT is improper biologiocal filtration... and that seems to be what got Jan here... I do 100% water changes on my QT tanks, not daily, but usually weekly depending on the circumstances. I also highly recommend these, as ammonia is by far the biggest QT killer... http://www.seachem.c...moniaAlert.html They will give you a real time reading on your ammonia levels and let you know when it's an issue... they minute it starts to turn off yellow... even before it gets to the first stage on the level indicator, you should plan a water change... also be sure to mix your newly made up saltwater for at least 36 hours (or 24 if you're in a pinch) and be sure it is the same temp and salinity... One other note... a lot of people initially get discouraged when they have issues with QT... do not give it up! Like anything else there is a learning curve, and as much as you read about something you will have initial hiccups... you could read and study and study about riding a bike for months and yet you'd still have issues when you first tried it out... and if we all gave up after initial failures NONE OF US would be in this hobby! The nice thing is that once you gain confidence in your QT and treatment methods and understand what goes on when you do have an issue pop up you handle the situation much better. This is very true and you need to be aware of that... copper works amazingly well but has its drawbacks... I use Seachem Cupramine over any other copper products... Many of our displays harbor parasites, and so what is also very common is infecting our newly purchased fish in the QT with parasites introduced from our display... I keep my QTs completely separate and do not let one drop of water go between any of my QTs or display... it only takes a drop (actually less) to introduce a parasite, the the newly purchased weak and stressed fish easily become vulnerable to many of them... I prefer Aquaclear hang on the back filters with a couple of the sponges that come with them in them. These sponges act as all the media you need for a good colony of nitrifying bacteria to colonize (the kind that break down ammonia and nitrites). On top of being great for biological filtration, they are great for mechanical filtration... when you do your water change you ring out the sponges and remove all of the excess food and wastes before they have a chance to breakdown (into ammonia of course)... and unlike what many people think, these sponges do not affect any medications or copper based remedies... Hope that helps! Copps Edited August 11, 2011 by Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 11, 2011 Share August 11, 2011 Copper will of course kill off some stuff, but it won't eliminate your biological filter. If that were the case, then people who have treated with copper in their FO systems would have killed everything off. Since you've started over, I'd begin your entire course of treatment again from square one. By stopping treatment, whatever was in there has had a chance to recover and will rebound. Your fish are also stressed enough by the ordeal that their immune systems are further compromised. This combination could result in disease taking hold again in your fish and gaining the upper hand. Think of it like having an infection for which antibiotics are prescribed for 10 days. If you only took the medication for 2 days and then discontinued it for a few days, the infection would have a chance to rebound and to also build up immunity. Just like for people, whatever doesn't kill bacteria/parasites only makes it stronger (well, not exactly, but you get the point). One other thing, I wouldn't bother looking for nitrites - they won't form until your ammonia has spiked a bit, at least not meaningfully if you have a biological filter in there. When you do a water change based on the presence of ammonia, you should eliminate the issues with nitrites forming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 11, 2011 Author Share August 11, 2011 (edited) Have to add one more bit of advice on eqiuipment for QT and hospital set up. Pick up 2 of each, measuring cups, mixing bowls, spoons and turkey basters at a dollar store. Mark them accordingly. Edited August 11, 2011 by Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copps August 11, 2011 Share August 11, 2011 OMG,Yes! Your reply helps tremendously. I can't thank you enough. I'm on the right track and that is very encouraging to me. I started my hospital tank with water from the established tank but did not add a sponge in the HOB filter because I was going to use medication. If it were a regular QT I would have added the bio wheel I keep in my sump. I thought that the water from the main display had enough biology to start the QT and knew that once I started to medicate I'd kill off the majority of biology, along with any free floating parasites. What I did not anticipate was how much would die off and how fast the accumulated waste would break down. No sweat Jan... happy to help... in reference to your statements above, adding water from an established tank does nothing... nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces, not in the water column, so adding water from an established tank does no good... and potentially harm if you are adding parasites. Sponges in the HOB filter do not remove medications, the carbon does. Having set up a new QT with nothing established I'm not surprised that there were beyond lethal amounts of ammonia, and that even after a 100% water change you were registering ammonia. One other thing... your biological filter bed will take a little bit of a hit when certain things are dosed... depending on what is dosed, but in a properly cycled QT with a good population going you will not even notice it, and neither will your fish. I can dose anything pretty much and not worry short term about nutrients... I may need to do a water change sooner but that's it... Addressing other questions you had... again in a properly cycled QT you should not have to do water changes more than once a week... In regards to testing for copper, I never bother with it... I prefer the Red Sea over the Seachem for testing cupramine, but testing copper is sometimes spotty and if you are off once on your testing you could easily overdose your fish... copper is lethal at not too much higher a dosage... so how do I get by with never testing copper? With the 100% water changes I do, I know exactly what the concentration will be with my dosing... the dosage will not fall in a QT, so you do not have to worry there... keep in mind though that at therapeutic levels even Cupramine can be stressful to certain families and genera of fish, so it should only be used if needed. Copps, thank you so much for explaining this to me. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand it all. I do have one more question. Is the sponge really acting as a biological filter when we medicate with copper and antibiotics or is it just acting like a filter and collecting debris? Doesn't the medication kill off most of the biology? Is there enough left to really make a difference after I medicate? Jan To answer this, yes the sponge filters always act as media for your biological filter bed to grow. As I said above the hit the filter will take depends on what you're dosing, but will not be that much, and the bacteria within a few days seem to adjust. These sponges are tremendously beneficial... when the QT is empty I continue to drop food in there when I feed the other fish so that the bacteria remain populated and fed. When properly done I'm able to add a shoal of a dozen anthias in a 20 gallon QT without registering ammonia... I trust my QT methods with even the most important and expensive of fish... two days ago I just added a small wrought iron butterfly to QT for my subtropical system... Many people rush their fish through QT as they do not have confidence... but in reality when properly done you have MORE control in a QT system than in your display... Copps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni August 16, 2011 Share August 16, 2011 wanted to revisit this if possible...any concerns with having larger fish in a 20 gallon qtank? I have a 90 gallon that i was planning on using eggcrate to divide to quarantine tangs/butterflies. I know there is a drawback to not separately quarantining as well as larger water changes needed in the case of dosing...any other drawbacks to having a larger qtank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 16, 2011 Author Share August 16, 2011 Thanks again, Copps. You've been a great help. The information I've gotten from Sean and now from you is invaluable. I would not have the confidence or the knowledge to continue to treat my fish if it weren't for you both. So far so good. The fish are looking good and all is running smoothly. No sweat Jan... happy to help... in reference to your statements above, adding water from an established tank does nothing... nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces, not in the water column, so adding water from an established tank does no good... and potentially harm if you are adding parasites. Sponges in the HOB filter do not remove medications, the carbon does. Having set up a new QT with nothing established I'm not surprised that there were beyond lethal amounts of ammonia, and that even after a 100% water change you were registering ammonia. One other thing... your biological filter bed will take a little bit of a hit when certain things are dosed... depending on what is dosed, but in a properly cycled QT with a good population going you will not even notice it, and neither will your fish. I can dose anything pretty much and not worry short term about nutrients... I may need to do a water change sooner but that's it... Addressing other questions you had... again in a properly cycled QT you should not have to do water changes more than once a week... In regards to testing for copper, I never bother with it... I prefer the Red Sea over the Seachem for testing cupramine, but testing copper is sometimes spotty and if you are off once on your testing you could easily overdose your fish... copper is lethal at not too much higher a dosage... so how do I get by with never testing copper? With the 100% water changes I do, I know exactly what the concentration will be with my dosing... the dosage will not fall in a QT, so you do not have to worry there... keep in mind though that at therapeutic levels even Cupramine can be stressful to certain families and genera of fish, so it should only be used if needed. To answer this, yes the sponge filters always act as media for your biological filter bed to grow. As I said above the hit the filter will take depends on what you're dosing, but will not be that much, and the bacteria within a few days seem to adjust. These sponges are tremendously beneficial... when the QT is empty I continue to drop food in there when I feed the other fish so that the bacteria remain populated and fed. When properly done I'm able to add a shoal of a dozen anthias in a 20 gallon QT without registering ammonia... I trust my QT methods with even the most important and expensive of fish... two days ago I just added a small wrought iron butterfly to QT for my subtropical system... Many people rush their fish through QT as they do not have confidence... but in reality when properly done you have MORE control in a QT system than in your display... Copps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan August 16, 2011 Author Share August 16, 2011 Figured I'd post this here too. Pictures of diseased fish and coral Fish http://www.chucksaddiction.com/disease.html Corals http://www.chucksaddiction.com/coraldisease.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copps August 22, 2011 Share August 22, 2011 wanted to revisit this if possible...any concerns with having larger fish in a 20 gallon qtank? I have a 90 gallon that i was planning on using eggcrate to divide to quarantine tangs/butterflies. I know there is a drawback to not separately quarantining as well as larger water changes needed in the case of dosing...any other drawbacks to having a larger qtank? Honestly Roni, a 20 gallon long is good for most all fish... I also have a 37 gallon long for some fish, but I've done many large angels in a 20 long. A 90 gallon is way too large in my opinion for a few reasons. If monitored, many fish can be QTed together. The drawback you mention is the major one! I am a huge proponent of 100% water changes in QT, and at a minimum large water changes are necessary. Most people do not have the ability, time, or money to do this on a 90 gallon. Also, many times you will need these water changes on fairly short notice, and making up that much water is just not possible. Also, many medications can get expensive when dosed in that amount. This much water volume is just not necessary and a real drawback for many reasons. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni August 22, 2011 Share August 22, 2011 John, Thanks so much. I've read that some people recommend prophylactic treatment in quarantine, with one person advocating maracyn 1/2 and cupramine for about a month and the prazi after they are eating okay. Do you do any prophylactic treatment or just observe and treat accordingly? Roni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copps August 22, 2011 Share August 22, 2011 The only thing I treat with prophylactically is Prazi, after the fish is adapted and feeding. Many of these medications are harsh and unnecessary unless you notice symptoms... Cupramine, while better than most copper, is still sometimes harsh, and there are some fish I will not treat with it at all depending on which family or genus it is... In QT a trained eye will catch anything parasitic early on before it becomes a problem and becomes lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni August 22, 2011 Share August 22, 2011 thanks john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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