[davelin315]

OK, so seeing all of the tanks going up I got motivated to begin my system. I've basically moved things around and have begun selecting equipment so I should be ready to go with construction in the next few months. I've also got a bunch of rock and will be buying more as I progress. By the end of the weekend I'll probably be at around 700+ lbs and I think I'll stop buying until this is all in the tank and then buy some large show pieces.

Right now, the set up will be as follows:

1. Display Tank - The tank itself is 7'x32"x30". The tank will be fairly low as compared to most tanks so that my kids can see into it and I am hoping that I will also be able to reach into it without using a large ladder. It will be as high as it needs to be for the overflow to make it into the sump, but no higher. This will also leave room above it as well.

2. Sump - I've got a 150 gallon glass tank that will serve as the sump for now. It'll be off to the side as I am planning on a large skimmer and I'd also like to have easy access to it.

3. Lighting - I'm planning on 3 400W HQI pendants, probably the PFOs. I'm going to go with the 10,000K bulbs and will see if I want to supplement with actinics after that. Most likely scenario is that I will use PCs to supplement, but we'll see where I'm at when I get to that stage and also see where T5s are at in regards to actinics.

4. Circulation - Tentative plans are to use the 2 Sequence Barracudas that I have as a return pump and a closed loop. I am going to look into using an Oceans Motions 4 way for the return and have it plumbed into the top of the tank as there are 4 holes drilled into each corner of the bracing, but I'm not sure of this yet. I also have a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000, a Little Giant 2MDQSX, a Little Giant 4MDQSX, and a Pan World 1000 (1000 gph, not sure if this is the model or not). I really don't want to have any powerheads in the tank so my eventual decision on which pumps to use and exactly how to use them will take this into consideration.

5. Contents - Aside from the rock, I'll be adding probably a 6" sandbed of fine oolitic or comparable sand. I think that given my wingspan and the height of the tank, anything less would mean I put on the snorkel every single time I reach into the bottom. I plan on housing SPS and LPS with some zoanthids and shrooms to boot. I have no idea on fish yet, but I do want to explore the possibilities of some larger tangs and anthias in my tank. Inverts will also be present, but not sure what types I'll go with yet beyond the normal routine ones.

6. Bells and Whistles - I have a dual calcium reactor that is around 4' high with 6" chambers and a ecotech marine kalk reactor. I have some maintenance to do on the calcium reactor as it was in sorry shape when I bought it, patched up with mounds of epoxy instead of simply using some acrylic solvent, and I'll dose the kalk reactor using some Tom's Aqualift pumps. I also will most likely be using an ASM G6 skimmer which is rated for 1200 gallons. The system with the sump will be around 350-400 gallons (the display will be just shy of 300 gallons) and I will add on an above tank refugium if I have the space as well as a frag tank somewhere, too. I also may plumb in the 58RR that is in my daughter's room but that's not a definite yet. We'll see how construction goes and what I like and don't like about the system before making any decisions on that. Other than that, I'm pretty much going to see what I can and cannot afford. Most likely that'll be it for at least a few years as I am already fairly tapped out and haven't even begun construction on the room yet, let alone a stand for the tank.

7. House Saving Equipment - I plan on having 2 dedicated circuits for this tank, both 15 or 20 amps. I may increase that to 3 and put each light on a different circuit along with a pump on each one as well. I figure if I spread the wealth, if a circuit trips, no harm done. I also plan on having a dehumidifier in the room along with an exhaust fan that will vent to the outside. There will be a utility sink in the room as well where the exisitng bar sink is. The room will be painted with something to waterproof it and it will be sealed off on its own. I may install a vent in the room for AC as well but am not sure yet.


Here's the tank itself. Take a look at the door to the left. It's a standard door so it'll give you an idea of the tank dimensions beyond the numbers.


Here's a closer shot of the tank while on it's side. That's my bowflex behind it that gets used at least once a decade.


Bulkheads on the left side.


Bulkheads on the right side.


Center overflow.


That's me. I would have put the whole family in there for the shot but it was pretty late and they were all sleeping. Why aren't I? Addicted...

[dhoch]

Dave looking nice... (and glad I can finally post again)....

Dave

[Prunfarm]

And we have to wait 2 yrs for this??? Arg.

[Ne0eN]

Is that a single drain bulkhead? You may need more drain!

-- Rob

[davelin315]

This is where the tank will go. The bar in the background is for sale if you want it. It's basically been a storage area for toys and pet stuff so it's gotta go! I figured that putting my liquor in there would invite the girls to play with it when they are playing in the basement. Bad combination!


This is the rock I have so far. That is 5' from one side to the other of solidly packed in rock.


Left side close up.


Left center close up.


Right center close up.


Right side close up.


My work crew. Me, myself, and I. OK, so it's late and I'm being silly.

[ErikS]

That's one nice sized tank - like all the bulkheads, lots of choices.

[davelin315]

It is a single bulkhead drain. I'm thinking of using the existing one as a safeguard and drilling the tank from the bottom instead. Not sure, though, as there's not a lot of room to mess around in the overflow and probably the most I could do is add some smaller bulkheads on the sides if I want to maintain some noise reduction. Despite the fact that it's going to be in a tank room, I still want to keep it as quiet as possible. Not sure what size the existing drain is, but if necessary, I may simply plumb the two Barracudas as closed loops and then go with a smaller return.

2 years is about how long it will take me to build, rebuild, rebuild again, and finalize. It's taken me over a year to simply start buying rock and put the tank on the ground versus on its side!

[fab]

When you do an in-wall tank, how do you treat the wall section above the tank?

It seems that the heat and salt-laden humidity would cause problems with the portion of the cutout wall that is right over the tank.

What are the issues to deal with here?

thanks,
fab

[Jon Lazar]

Dave,

That's going to be an awesome tank when you get it up and running, and it sounds like you've already got a lot of the equipment you need. I almost bought it myself from Tony, but the dimensions didn't exactly work for me.

It may seem like a huge project right now, but rest assurred you're doing it right by taking your time and planning things out. Plus this gives you plenty of time to buy your equipment pre-owned while you're putting the room and stand together.

Good luck!

Jon

[davelin315]

Thanks, it's definitely a long term project, especially financially!

As far as prepping the "room" when it's built, the exhaust fan will be key (along with a dehumidifier). That said, I will also be painting the ceiling, existing walls, and any new walls I build along with exposed surfaces with either a marine grade paint or a few coats of sealant to prevent moisture from soaking into everything. The exhaust fan and dehumidifier (may not do the dehumidifier as it will add heat to the room which is not that big to begin with, may simply substitute a humidistat control for the fan) will also prevent condensation on exposed surfaces so that I don't have to repaint again in the near future. There's been a lot of problems reported with extreme humidity due to large tanks, but my plan is to isolate the humidity and vent it out before it becomes a problem anywhere else.

[emissary]

davelin315, on Aug 12 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

(may not do the dehumidifier as it will add heat to the room which is not that big to begin with, may simply substitute a humidistat control for the fan)

This has worked well for me by the way.

[davelin315]

emissary, on Aug 12 2006, 07:49 PM, said:

This has worked well for me by the way.

I know, that's where I got the idea from.

[Carl]

Dave - Glad to see you're progressing...

Seems like you've got a great deal of your equipment already.

When will you cut the hole in the wall? Wait until you have most of the other equipment?

Let me know if you need help moving or lifting anything.

-Carl

[davelin315]

Hey Carl, there's no cutting involved, it's building the wall! I don't have a room behind so I am going to remove the existing bar and then build a wall about 6' from the existing wall and bring it around. I keep on going back and forth about exactly how to do this and maintain as much space as I can in the basement, but I'll definitely let you know when it comes time to lift the tank onto the stand! It's not that heavy when it's completely dry, but it's certainly heavy enough to need another person.

[davelin315]

OK, so here's my stand design and I'm looking for feedback. I think I might have a problem with the lack of legs in the middle, but given the materials I'm using, I may not, so you engineers out there, let me know your thoughts.



The top picture is the front and back view. Basically, it shows the layout of the stand. The top will be constructed of 2x6s, the legs will also be 2x6s, and the base will be made of 2x4s. On the top and bottom of the stand there will be a sheet of plywood. For the top, 3/4", for the bottom, 1/2". The plans call for 3 legs across the front and back. Each leg will be 6x6 when viewed from above (comprised of 3 2x6 glued and bolted) and will be a total of 30.5" - broken down to 4" at the bottom that will extend down, the middle section being 20.5", and the top being 6".

The second picture on the bottom left is the side view of the stand. It gives you an idea of the construction of the legs, which will be made up of 3 2x6s bolted and glued together for strength. You can see the arrangement of the corner legs while the middle leg of the end piece will be oriented in the other way. The darkened areas are open space.

The bottom right picture here is the construction of the center leg for the front and back. It will have 3 different lengths of 2x6 so that it can fit into the bottom of the stand as well as fit into the top of the stand so I can bolt it together. I may have to trim some of the pieces a bit, to accomodate the top as I got sick of playing around with paint. The boards will also have a 2x6 groove cut in them that goes through the inside 2 2x6s so that I can run a 2x6 from front to back to support the middle of the tank.



This is the view of the top of the stand. It shows that the top is constructed of 2x6s bolted and glued together for strength. The outside pieces run all the way across while the ends have one piece that runs from the inside edges of the other ones and another one that is cut in half to accomodate the center beam. The center beam itself runs all the way across, minus 4" total so that it can fit between the 2 end boards. Spaced along the inside are 2x6 spacers.

The bottom left picture is of the end legs. They have a groove cut in them from the inside and outside view so that the center board can run through them and be supported.

The bottom right picture is what the corner legs will look like. They have grooves cut in them to accomodate the top and bottom frame although I think I'll still need to remove a chunk off the top pieces.



This is a picture of the bottom of the stand. It will basically be 2 2x4 rectangles, one inside the other, all screwed onto a sheet of plywood. The portion of the legs which extends down will go into the space in between the rectangles to hold them steady. The bottom half of the picture is the arrangement of the legs, also showing where the support for the center beam will go. This beam will be a 2x6 and will rest on 2 of the 3 2x6 boards of the center legs.

Now, as far as this stand is concerned, I don't need to have anything below it as my sump will be off to the side, so I will also be able to brace the front with a sheet of plywood and also the sides with sheets of plywood to keep it from shifting at all. Also, the interior of the stand is only for storage so I am not worried about the space in there. I figure that the tank itself is 32" high, top to bottom, and I will be adding a 6" sand bed, so the viewable area of the tank is about 26" minus the top and bottom (including sand bed). I want the tank to be at about 32" in height so that the tank itself is viewable for my kids. The top of the tank will therefore be at around 64" so I should be able to reach into it. The stand must elevate the drain of the tank up to around 32" so that the overflow will still work (I have about 4" to play with here). The sump itself is 27.5" high, and considering I will put it on a 2x4 frame with a 1/4" plywood sheet on top and also a small layer of foam as well, my tank will drain nicely into the sump with few problems.

The room itself is 92" from floor to ceiling so this will in theory give me the top of the tank at around 64", leaving 28" for lighting and reaching into the tank. Since it's such a high tank, this will allow me to mount the lights at up to 1' above and also give me room to slide them out if I want to.

[ErikS]

Can you say overkill?

Three 2x6? Completely un-necessary, a single 2x6 could hold that much vertical load with ease. 300 gallons should run under a ton & a half total weight = sounds like a lot but when you consider how that load is spread out (nice acrylic = entire bottom supports the load). A short height 2x6 can likely hold in the area of 25,000 pounds per sq inch before failing (in fact I think a 2x4 get in that area). They're amazingly strong on end. IT's the spans that require more consideration.

Much as I love overkill I'd consider a redesign with 2 2x6 (still overkill) for the legs & maybe make the "joists" from 2 2x6 with a 3/4" ply sandwich. Small triangles in the corners of the legs will provide more than enough lateral stability.......unless you're sheathing which means no need for them.

I would think you could do a simple square box with front -> back supports using 1/2 lap joints.

Let's hear from the engineers

Remember - it ain't the amount of lumber, it's how the load is carried.

[davelin315]

Thanks for the input, I was thinking that if I did need to modify I could incorporate another set of legs on the front and back in order to support the whole thing and space them evenly beneath (basically creating another set of center legs). When you say 3 2x6s for the spans, are you talking side to side? And would that be for all 3 "joists" or just the center one? Or, should I switch to 2x8s for the spans and use six of them with the 2 sets of legs in between the corners?

Oh, and I don't know what a "lap joint" is. I like to play around, but I'm not that advanced with the terminology (although I could tell you what a dado and a rabbit cut is for some reason!). Also, by "sheathing" do you mean basically screwing on a cover?

[ErikS]

Where's it going? (how many open sides). A rough idea & I'll try to whip up a .jpg of a design.

Sheathing = wrapping of the frame. I.E. if you wrap the frame with some ply it adds tons of lateral stability. Think of Ikea type assembly stuff - the cardboard backing gives lateral stability. Something as thin as 1/4" ply will triple the lateral stability. Since this is in wall likely it won't be wrapped, some corner triangles will add the same stability (I think Carl's 500g stand has an example).

1/2 Lap = remove 1/2 the material from each joining piece, either vertical or horizontal. Even when 1/2 the material of a 2x material is removed 80% of the strength remains.

Rough guesses - 2 x 2x6 more than enough for the legs, it's the horizontal pieces that will require care as this is where wood can carry the least amount of load.

[Carl]

Not being an engineer...but having built a few things in my life...here is my 2 cents.

Overkill on the vertical 2x6's...like what was said above...vertical 2x6's are very strong...you don't need to have 3 of them on every leg, 2 are plenty...I would guess that even 2, 2x4's (one 4x4) for each leg would suffice.

What I believe is the most critical piece to this design is the horizontal 2x6's. And with 6 vertical legs, I think you're ok there. If you are unsure, add two more 4x4 legs for a total of 8 legs. And like I think you're doing directly under the tank - use 2x6's front to back (short distance) from leg to leg, rather than long distance (left to right). And like Erik said, building a sandwich of 2x6's (the bread) and plywood (the bologna) for the horizontal spans would greatly increase their strength. And use plenty of nails/screws/bolts to tie the sandwich together!

And the sheathing is also very important - or some other type of triangle like Erik said - to prevent lateral movement.

Yesterday, I spoke with Tom at Marine Scene, who installs these types of tanks all the time, and he suggested that I use TWO pieces of 3/4inch plywood under the tank, not just one. I can see how this makes sense...especially with Acryllic which has the weight distributed over the entire bottom, not just the perimeter like on a glass tank.

Tom also said he's had much better experience using rubber matting between the plywood and tank (vs rigid foam insulation) and he suggested I get it from Potomac Rubber. I haven't checked out the pricing on that, but Tom said it was about $30/foot.

-Carl

[davelin315]

OK, I did intend on sheathing it on the front and two ends. My thoughts for the tank itself is that I might try and make it viewable on 3 sides and have it recessed from the wall a bit. Basically, I was going to try and build a tiny shelf along the edge so I could rest my hands/elbows/chin on it when I'm staring blankly at the tank...

I understand the lap joints, just never knew what they were called before. Thanks, also, for the explanation of the sandwhich. I think that I'll stick with the 3 legs, then, and modify the top so that it's got more support.

As far as substituting for the foam, is that basically the same thing as foam rubber play mats or garage mats? Those are cheap and easy to come by. Did MS happen to explain why 2 sheets of plywood will help? Is it solely for a thicker and therefore more stable surface? Less likelihood of more pressure on certain areas?

[Carl]

I actually don't know what type of mats he spoke of...other than Tom recommended it be 1/4 thick. He said I could call Potomac Rubber, and they'll know what I'm looking for...sorry can't be of further help on that one...although I will probably be going there over the next month or so to see what they have.

And yes, the 2 pieces of 3/4 inch plywood is to just make a more stable surface under the tank, in between the 2x6 supports.

I also asked Tom about using pressure treated plywood...and he said that in his experience...2 pieces of marine-grade plywood is fine...it wasn't necesary to use the more expensive pressure treated...

[davelin315]

Where do you get marine grade plywood? Also, do you think that pressure treated is better to use for this? I was thinking I would use it, but I don't know if using regular wood and painting it with a marine grade waterproofing paint would be better in the long run to prevent it from soaking up humidity and possibly warping a bit.

[davelin315]

OK, I redid my plans and went out and bought the wood tonight. The plans now call for 8 30" long sections that will support the tank. The 30" spans are comprised of sandwiches (thanks for the advice guys!) made of two 2x6s and a strip of 3/4" plywood in between. These will be glued together and also screwed together using pressure treated screws (I opted against pressure treated lumber and went with regular lumber which I will paint after assembly is complete). As stated, there will be 8 of these going across the tank. Beneath this there will be another set of 2 of these, but these will be 84" long and will support the edges. In between these, the 21.5" span will be supported by another 2x6 or possibly a 2x8 (haven't decided how much space I want beneath it). The legs will be in the same place but will be made of two 2x6s instead of the three 2x6s. The legs in the center of the front and back, however, will also have a 2x8 leg to support it further along. If I don't feel I have enough support, I will add in another set of 2 legs so that I space it out. On top there will be two sheets of 3/4" plywood and the bottom will be a 1/2" sheet of plywood for stability. The base will still be made of 2x4s with an outer and an inner rectangle. On top of this will be another sheet of plywood to serve as a base.

With this configuration I have spaces in between the top row of spans that are about 7 3/4" wide, much thinner than code for a floor, and then going front to back the span will only be between 9-10" depending on whether I do the 2x6, 2x8, or another sandwhich through the middle. I feel this gives me more than enough support for the tank and even if it's overkill, it's not going to be problematic because I'm not taking up any space that I don't need to take up. I have yet to decide if I will sheath the front and sides or if I will simply use the plywood corners (a lot of this depends on what I have left lumberwise!).

So far I purchased two 3/4" 4'x8' plywood sheets, one 1/2" 4'x8' plywood sheet, eighteen 2"x6"x8', and two 2"x8"x8'. I liked the stand drawing I saw someone else do (can't remember whose, but they used google sketchup, a free program, so I downloaded it and have been playing around with it. I sketched out the stand for the most part and am going to try and attach the file.

[davelin315]

Well, I began construction and for some reason the fact that the 2x6s are not really 2"x6" escaped me (again). Anyway, I passed one 3/4" plywood sheet through a table saw to cut it into strips that are the same width as the 2x6s. I then made a "sandwich" with two 2x6s and a strip of 3/4" plywood which I glued together and then while it was clamped, screwed together as well. I will make a bunch of these and then pass them through a planer before I cut them to length. I think I will actually make the spans 31" across so that I have a tiny bit of an overlap for the tank (about 1/4" on each side). I'll try and snap a picture of what I'm doing but my energy level is pretty low right now and so is my motivation. I only had time to construct one of these so the rest will have to wait until later. It shouldn't take too long as I'm only laying on some glue, clamping, and then screwing them together with 3 1/2" screws.

[davelin315]

OK, construction has slowed to a standstill with school starting but I did manage to go down to BRK on Sunday to pick up my ASM G6. I'm going to have to modify it so that it fits in my sump (footprint is 18"x19" with the pumps but I've been told that I can simply plumb one of the pumps with silicone tubing instead to reduce the footprint as my sump has a smallest internal dimension of 17"), but I'll try and snap a picture of the whole contraption when I actually find time to take it out of the car and put it together (it'll have to wait until I also get 6 tanks moved back into school). Also, I am rethinking the calcium reactor as it had some leaks and in trying to fix it I found that I'll simply need to cut one entire tube off and redo it. I may simply opt to buy a new one or wait until I find one out there that someone else is selling that fits my needs. In any case, I'll update with pictures one of these days...